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Extracts from Interviews:-


3. Latifah recounts her dreams

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I had another dream and, although it wasn't a dream with Bapak in it, I think it was important.

My sister who was ten or twelve years older than I, died of cancer. She was a very talented and wonderful person but very unhappy in her life. Before she died, I tried to find Subud near her and I found one women who did the Latihan in North Carolina.

But she also did Scientology and I took my sister and scrounged up a Latihan. My sister said, "It's all right. I'd just like to sit outside it". She knew nothing about the custom for probationers to sit outside the Latihan hall during the Latihan and I said, "That's fine!" .

So we did Latihan and my sister said later, "Well I felt like the urge to move" and that was it.

But she asked, "How do I know that there's a God? And if I say I believe in God, I'm just saying that because I'm in pain and I hurt and I don't want to be a hypocrite". She was feeling all this mental stuff.

Do you not open people when they don't believe in God?

I wasn't a helper....

" "Cause I tell people, I say 'Don't worry, you'll either believe in Him or not'. "

No. My sister was hesitant. I wouldn't impose it on her.

No, of course, not.

I took her close and I said "Well, if you want it, you can have it" and she said "No, I just want to be outside". Anyway, it was Ramadan, and I was in California. I put some water on to make a cup of coffee during the night as I was staying up late.

Suddenly, I knew my sister was in hospital but she'd been in and out of hospital - now she was there in the middle of the night, and I had a sort of dream experience where I am in a house, in a living-room, visiting Rochana, and there's a knock at the door, and instead of letting Rochana answer her own door, I answer the door, and my sister Sally is standing at the door and she is dressed in a suit and a hat.

You know, it used to be, when women travelled, they wore a little suit and gloves and stuff. It was a travelling outfit: She had on her travelling clothes; and I said "Sally, how did you know I was here?" and she said, "Don't you look great" .

I said "How come you're here?" and she said "I just passed on" and I said, "Oh great, come on in. How good you came here (laughter) because Rochana's a helper and she can open you", and I said "Rochana, this is my sister. She just passed on and she wants to be opened now". And I - oh gosh, I don't know if you can open someone who has just passed on.

And then I kind of came to, and that was the dream experience I had as a day dream; and I thought, "Oh it couldn't be my sister" and I looked at my watch , "It couldn't be that my sister just passed on. Who would I be to have an experience of this nature? This must be a reminder that I should call her and say, 'Look Sally, if you feel like you want to pray, or anything, just go ahead. I mean, you can say Dear Whoever You are, if You really are there; just go ahead and pray. It doesn't matter about the names. Just say Help! I'm here because it's Okay'"

When I came out of my daydream I found myself spontaneously saying "Just say 'Allah!' Sally. Just say 'Allah' ". And then I was saying, "Oh I couldn't have had this experience".

So in the morning I call. She had passed on at exactly the time I had that experience of her passing on. So then Ramadan came to an end, and I went to the hall for the 'Id-ul-Fitri and Rosina was pregnant at the time with Rosalind.

I'm doing Latihan at the hall. Rosina wasn't doing Latihan because she was so pregnant at the time and, in my Latihan, I'm saying "Oh I see my sister walking with Ibu with a parasol" and they're walking together and I'm saying "me ra cul".

I didn't understand it until the whole Latihan was over that what I was saying putting "me ra cul" together was 'miracle' until the Latihan was over. I just kept saying during the Latihan those three sounds "Me ra cul" and I kept doing this again and watching Ibu walk with my sister.

Then I saw Ibu see Rosina who was not there in the Latihan, and see Rosina's big belly and she put her hand on Rosina's big belly and said "And how's Rosalind?". After the Latihan, I said to Rochana, "Rochana, do you know the name the child is supposed to be if it's a girl?" and she said "Rosalind".

How wonderful!

...so I was given something in the way of proof in this world to measure by, like I was shown it was a girl and it was Rosalind, without my knowing. So it was proof that my sister was with Ibu and it was a miracle and she was opened and it was Okay.

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more extracts

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It was the first time I had ever seen testing - at the Indonesian Congress - during my Indonesian trip. There was a small Latihan hall then and Indonesian Subud members had come for the Congress from all over and they were tested in lots of maybe five people or seven people. Bapak was testing the women from Solo and then the women from this place and the women from that place. It was just the Indonesians who were being tested.

And then, in those days Cilandak was very primitive. There was a little guest house. But there wasn't enough space in the compound. There was a wooden lean-to at the gate where they made cold ice drinks in the daytime and a little girl who was the daughter of the gatekeeper played songs on an accordion.

Then there was a little house on the site of where, later, the Horthy house was but the house hadn't been built then, and the Horthys hadn't arrived yet. It was used as a dormitory and I stayed in that house.

The generator had been put in but nobody knew how to work it! The lights were on all day long and most of the night (laughter) and there was no running water in our place. I had to walk almost a block to the guest house to take a shower or use the water. There was a bak mandi in our place but we didn't know how to use it....

A bak mandi?

Its a water receptacle which is filled with water and one splashes in it to take a bath. This one was filled up with water but there was never any running water so it all turned green and had frogs in it (laughter).

I remember that!

....and you couldn't use it. There were no fans and there were no maids. There was no electricity and there were only mud paths between buildings. I had a four-year old boy and I spent the entire time washing mud off things. Anyway I didn't know too much about Subud and I had never witnessed testing.

Then after the testing, we would sort of wander over to Aminah's (wife of Usman, one of Bapak's interpreters) porch because the coolest place was always outside. There would be talk about all the ladies who'd been tested. "Oh did you see so-and-so? She thinks she's so high, but did you see her test? Why she's down here!"

I was mortified. I thought, "Oh my God, these people can see your inner when you test! You're totally naked." I thought, "I'm never going to be tested in my whole life! I don't ever want to be tested".

I panicked as I now believed that being tested was like somebody being able to read your mind and see your underwear (laughter). It was the worst, most naked and most terrifying situation I could ever imagine.

So I began to have nightmares about testing and then I had a dream. In the dream we were in San Francisco and we were in a hall and Bapak had come and he was going to give a talk and testing session. All the San Francisco members were there that I knew. The whole Bay was there. This is all in my dream.

Your dream! Wow!

I was called up with other women to test and I was so mortified about going up and testing and in the dream Bapak said, "Where are your hands and what is the use of your hands?"

And I put my hands out and then he said, "Where are your feet and what is the use of your feet?"

Suddenly, in front of me ...in my dream, in the test when he said, "Where are your hands and what is the use of your hands?" I found myself in the countryside and on these beautiful green hills and I was like Little Bo-Peep, in some kind of strange clothes standing by a beautiful tree, an incredible tree, and I started using my hands to climb the tree.

I could hear all my brothers and sisters behind me who were watching the testing go, "Oh bzzz, bzzz. Look how high she is...she's levitating" and I knew I wasn't levitating.

I knew that I was climbing a tree. But I knew that they couldn't see that I was climbing a tree but I could see I was climbing a tree and I thought, 'Its not what they think. I'm doing something very normal. I used to climb trees as a kid'. (laughter). Climbing up this tree and in order to show "What is the use of your hands?" and I kept climbing, climbing, climbing.....

Wonderful!

And finally, I got way out on the branch of this tree and I was in this sort of Little Bo-Peep style outfit which had a full skirt and wide pantaloons and little black shoes and white socks and I thought of a fairy tale or something. And in this make-believe world and this make-believe tree, I thought, "I don't know how to get down!".

Just at that moment there was Bapak, standing under the tree in a kind of English country squire costume (laughter) and I didn't recognise him as Bapak. I just saw this tree, way out there, "Oh please, kind sir, can you help me?".

And he said, "Yes you can get down, the same way you got up" (laughter). I said "Oh all right", so I made myself climb down. And then I could also hear all the people in the audience who were observing this saying, "Oh well I guess that's put her in her place. She can't stay up there after all; she has to get back down" (laughter).

So one minute they had this high regard for me and the next minute they had no regard for me, but it was all based on their imagination and they were totally unable to recognise what I was receiving in my dream.

So in this dream, I understood that the test was for me and it didn't matter what anybody thought, and whatever they thought, it was wrong anyway, because it was not their experience but it was my experience.

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